Guest Commentary
Exclusive to The Zelman Partisans
By pigpen51
I have a confession to make. I’m not a millionaire.
This probably doesn’t come as a shock to anyone familiar with my comments on different topics on this website, but what you might not realize is that I have other interests outside of firearms, and other things to spend money.
Like a great many of you, I have a family that’s grown accustomed to a certain level of comfort. They expect things that, from looking at the lives of many other gun enthusiasts, are a given for most, but must be planned for in my case. Things like — oh, I don’t know — a roof over our heads and gasoline in our vehicles. My family even likes to eat every day.
It sometimes seems that I’m the only gun enthusiast who must work hard not only to squeeze firearms into my tight budget, but to squeeze in the normal, everyday things as well.
This post is not for the person who has an unlimited budget. It’s also not intended for the person who has a perhaps normal, decent, comfortable income. It’s meant for the rest of us. Living in the real world. The world where you can’t spend money frivolously for the latest and greatest guns and doodads.
Now, I know what a lot of you are thinking: I’ve seen this type of post before. How inexpensive firearms are just fine for self defense. But that’s not quite what I’m getting at. When I first was looking at a handgun for concealed carry, I also read as many of those articles as I could find. The problem with them, and the reason I ultimately rejected their advice, was that others’ idea of a cheap handgun and my idea of a cheap handgun are two different things. For starters, those other writers would balk at the word cheap and would insist on the term affordable, which opens a whole new can of worms.
Who hasn’t seen the post from the guy or gal who likes to say, “Your life is worth it. Don’t buy a cheap gun. Save your money until you can afford to buy a decent one.” Their idea of affordable almost universally has a price tag of $500 and up. Do you know how long it would take some of us to save up that much?
For those who are unwilling to use a credit card, or who chose to live simply and have finally escaped the rat race, that price can still be too steep.
So what do the rest of us do? Are we supposed to stay defenseless if we can’t afford someone else’s idea of “affordable”?
I used to think it was not necessary for me to carry a gun, that I could handle one or two attackers on my own. I was strong, fit, and of the mindset that I would prevail. In other words, I was an idiot. I’m now older, slower, and hopefully wiser. I realize that there are people out there willing not only to hurt me, but kill me to take what little I may have for themselves. And the only way that I can stop them may be with a gun.
With that in mind, I’m going to present you a real world example of self defense carry guns on a very basic budget — including the good, the not so good, and what I am doing now. This is not what I’m saying you should do. Rather it’s what I have done and some of the reasons why.
My first handgun was an H & R model 929, a 9-shot, .22 caliber revolver. I had the 6-inch barrel. I carried it for quite some time, and never felt like I was in danger of being “made” even though I used an OWB holster with a cover garment. It seemed like concealment became more of a mindset thing than anything else. And it was a fairly good sized gun.
I won’t get into the caliber wars. I used what I had. I figured that .22 was similar to the diameter of a pencil. I sure wouldn’t want anyone to stick a pencil through me nine times, so I felt somewhat safe.
I admit to making my biggest mistake next. Not because of my choice of gun, but because I was still using credit cards. I bought a firearm from Cabelas for $179. Looking back, I still would have bought the gun, but wouldn’t have gone into debt to do it.
This gun was a P-64, made by the Polish factory Radom. The short description is: an all steel military version of a Walther PPK, only instead of being .380, it’s chambered in 9 x 18 Makarov. Again, I am not getting into caliber debates. Just remember the .380 is 9 x 17, the Makarov is 9 x 18, and the Luger is 9 x 19. This gun is double-action, with a decocker safety. It came with two magazines, a military holster, and a cleaning rod.
It does have its quirks, shall we say. First, the trigger pull. Just go to the P-64 website and you will learn how to change the springs. I ordered the kit from Wolff springs. It took the double action from about 30 pounds (almost unusable) to maybe 16. It took the single action to probably 3 pounds. After about 500 rounds, the double action pull not only smoothed out, but lessened some more. Its other, more difficult for some, quirk is that it kicks like a rented mule. Not for everyone, but I had no problem with it.
I was working third shift when I owned this gun, and coming home from work in the morning, sometimes at 5:00 a.m., I had occasion to stop at the local big box store based in Arkansas. It was comforting to know that this gun slipped easily into the front pocket of my jeans and just as easily came back out in a hurry if the need arose. Even here in small town middle America, the class of people one might encounter at that big box store in the early morning hours after perhaps a long night of drinking are questionable at best, and not the type I wanted to brave without protection.
Next comes every gun snob’s nightmare. The dreaded Hi-Point. I bought a Hi-Point C-9, with a Galco paddle holster, for $140. I get how bad everybody says they are — that is, everybody who has never owned one or shot one. Yeah, they are kind of ugly. Just like I think all plastic guns are kind of ugly. They are kind of top-heavy. They feel weird. They also kind of work. Every time.
But here’s the best part. My wife was able to cash-flow the entire purchase of the gun and some ammo by winning a contest from a local radio station just before Christmas one year. She won gift certificates to a Cabelas close to us. I had been wanting a new pistol, and the prices for everything but the Hi-Point were more than the gift certificates.
Just a couple more to go.
I sold another gun, got $100 again, and wanted a pocket carry gun. I had my eye on the Phoenix 22a. It’s a .22 cal semiauto. I checked online and got a price of $119 from Classic Firearms. I thought, I really should give a local gun store a shot. You know, support them and all. I went to them and they said that they couldn’t sell me a Phoenix for a good price; they had to pay $130 to their supplier for the gun themselves. Of course, they not only lost that sale, they never saw me again. I have no problem with someone making a profit from me. I just am funny about rape.
The Phoenix 22a is a neat little gun from California. It feels nice in your hand. It has an available 5-inch barrel, which can be switched with the 3-inch barrel I bought.
I made a holster for it and carried it for awhile. Then my son moved back to Michigan (where I live) from California. His new wife, who hadn’t been exposed to guns, went shooting with us. She fell in love with the gun, and I sold it to her for $100, plus I gave her the extra magazine I had ordered.
This would be a great carry gun for someone with a small hand, or who was recoil-sensitive, save for one thing. The safety setup on the gun is onerous. It has a hammer-block safety, which is fine; it is a single action. It also has a magazine safety lever. And it has other idiosyncracies. One that I found just plain strange was that you could only draw the slide back about 3/16 of an inch to check for a loaded round. I just never got comfortable with all the monkeying about with safeties, and am reluctant to follow the advice of some on the web and just disable the magazine safety. I carried the gun with both safeties off and no round in the chamber, and although quite workable, it never felt like this was a good carry gun for me.
And now we come to my current carry gun. I paid exactly $200 for it, new, from Classic Firearms on a 4th of July sale. This is the Taurus PT 111, Gen 2. It’s a striker-fired, polymer gun with a second-shot capability, which means if the first time around it fails to fire, simply pull the trigger again for a double action attempt on the same round.
This gun was not affected by last year’s recall of Taurus pistols which could fire if dropped, safety on or off. Most of the time we try and not drop our handguns, but I suppose that it could happen.
The Taurus has an external safety, comes with two double-stack 9mm magazines, each holding 12 rounds, plus one in the chamber. Like any handguns I’ve owned, this one has never had any issues of any kind. I currently have about 600 or 700 rounds through it.
I carry this gun in the Hi-Point’s old holster, with a slight modification. The thumb-break strap was loose on the Taurus, so I drilled the old snap out and moved it to get a better fit.
I hardly have to say that these guns are not high-end. Yet, given my experience there is no need for any “expert” to claim that you should never carry a _____ (whatever gun that person doesn’t like) because it might blow up, or spontaneously combust, or even worse, one of my friends might see me with it.
Maybe you don’t want, or don’t have to, get guns as cheap as these, but no matter what any “expert” says, you can get a good carry guns without breaking your bank.
Of course, I would love to own and carry a different gun. I now have enough experience for MYSELF to decide what type and caliber of handgun I will ultimately acquire, if I decide to spend the money for something else.
I’m not going to tell you what gun I lust after, but for me it will be hammer-fired, double-action with a decocker safety. I would love to own another P 64, but the two issues that make it a no-go for me are parts availability and the caliber. It was a communist bloc gun, and if a firing pin were to break, it could be a problem to find a replacement. On the caliber issue: I paid from 21 to 25 dollars a box Makarov ammo in the town where I live, when it was available. I could sometimes order Russian-made ammo for as little as $9 from Cheaper Than Dirt, but that, too, wasn’t always available. With 9mm Luger, I can go to my local Dunham’s Sporting Goods and get Remington/UMC ammo for 12 dollars per box. I can buy just a box or two when I can afford it and not have to worry about availability.
I still have the Hi-Point in 9mm as well, and for us poor, I mean frugal-minded, folks, it just makes sense to settle on a major caliber for all of our carry guns. That means I can slowly build up my supply of ammo without trying to do so in several different flavors. I do save my brass, and also pick up other spent brass left behind. If someday the need arises, I can always start to reload, and the brass will keep indefinately.
Again, I’m not aying you should do anything I’ve just described. Rather, this is is what I have done and some of the reasons why. I don’t pretend this is what a quote-unquote knowledgable firearms person would recommend. I can almost guarantee they would scream in panic at the thought of carrying some of the firearms I’ve carried.
I can also bet that more people fit the mold of either going this route or going without. And I don’t have to tell you that I think doing without is a bad idea.
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taurus 24/7 g2 9mm stainless slide $287 on gunbroker + 3% for credit card + $20 shipping + $35 transfer + $35 for extra mag (3 total)
300 rounds in…it runs like a sewing machine…the trigger is still breaking in…its good enough right now and will be nice in another few hundred rounds
it is the nicest shooting handgun i own (the others are a walther p22 a ruger sp 101 a ruger p90 a taurus pt-92 a glock 22 and a colt govt .380)
it is the only handgun i have ever shot that i can do double taps with and the mozambique drill…i think the dual recoil spring setup is the key
the fully ambidextrous controls are nice…safety/decocker/slide release/mag release
it will be my carry gun after another 1-2 trips to the range if it is still running good
less than $400 invested…couldnt be happier
Mine wasn’t exactly cheap, a Taurus PT24/7 Pro LS/DS 9mm. at $435 back in 2011. Over 3000 rounds. Carry it every day.
Although I have been thinking about getting one of the PT111 Gen2 in 9mm for $200 just because.
I think I’d rather save up for used Glock instead of compiling a bunch of pistols some folks might regard as questionable. There aren’t too many things worth going into debt for but medication and self defense make my list.
I have both a 9mm Hi-Point C-9 and a .40-cal. S&W Sigma. I was able to lighten up the trigger pull on the Sigma, but my C-9 is still my preferred carry gun. Weight? Doesn’t bother me (my carry load in Vietnam was considerably heavier). Okay, it’s ugly. It’s clunky and rattles when I walk. But, and this is the biggie – it works every time I pull the trigger. Plus, I happen to like a manual safety. And, being retired, I’m not overloaded with excess funds for a top-of-the-line M-1911 type.
Of the weapons you discussed the PT111 Gen2 caught my eye. I might check them out. I like the striker fired guns. Simple, easy to maintain. I’ve been interested in Hi Point carbines that run pistol ammo. Not sure why but I want look at them too. Good article. Value is important these days.
The trigger has a second strike ability, which is nice. The single action is not good, but can be overcome. I’m keeping mine. Can’t beat the price. It just flat out works.
Your experience has been similar to mine. I have often worked manual labor jobs in addition to the day job to afford a new gun. Mine are inexpensiveq and generally used. The one time I truly needed a handgun it was a cheap Bersa Thunder .380. $189 from a loss leader sale. It is dead reliable and easy to carry. An expensive pistol would of served me no better that morning. It also fits in a pants or jacket pocket.
I gave up using .22lr in pocket pistols for carry. I had opportunity to hunt small game with one and it seldom would stop bunnies, possums or armadillos. Lesson learned. I used to get the old Jennings J22 for 40-50 dollars.
Before I bought my Hi-Point, I read pages upon pages of comments on various forums. I learned that comments were generally of two kinds – “I own(ed) one and I love(d) it” or “I would never own one and have never owned or fired one and I hate the gun”. So I bought one. Now, that was several years ago, and I go to every gun show and store around, and have never seen a used Hi-Point for sale. I think that says something about the gun too.
there are several torture tests on you tube about the hi-point firearms. some are quite revealing. the best thing about them is that they are american made, and backed by a lifetime warranty, for who ever owns the gun. the gun fills a niche. and it does it quite well.
Speaking as a SCCY 2 carrier, welcome to the club.
The first handgun I ever fired was a Hi-Point C9. As such, at the time I had no other experience and didn’t see a problem with it. The owner described it (quite correctly) as “the best value you can get for the money”. Even as a new shooter, I had precisely zero problems with it.
Now, having more chances to fire more models and varieties of handguns, I’d describe a C9 as “a brick on a stick”, for its narrow (single-stack) grip and it’s top-heavy-ness. It wouldn’t be my first choice of carry gun (it doesn’t fit my hand nearly as well as what I have now), but having actually handled and fired it I wouldn’t fault anyone for owning or carrying one. I do, on the other hand, fault people for disparaging it as an option without ever trying it.
The definition of “best value for your budget” depends greatly on “your budget”. If you want a great handgun for under $1,200, get a 1911. If you want one for under $800, get a SIG. If you want one for under $600, get a S&W M&P, a Springfield XD or XD-M, or a Glock.
But if you NEED a gun RIGHT NOW (i.e. you don’t have time to save up for a “respectable” [per Keyboard Kommandos] gun) and only have $200, a Hi-Point will do the job.
Thank you, pigpen51, for writing this. (I too am tired of reading “reviews” on “affordable guns” only to get to the MSRP and see a number that more closely resembles my pre-tax income than anything I can justify spending. Not all of us have the benefit of a corporate T&E budget.)
A cheap Lee hand Loader and some 9m brass and you can make all the Makarov ammo you want. You can almost do it for free.
The gun you have, is better than the gun you want.
Amen to that… the gun you have with you when you need it, is the perfect one. S&W SD9, Apex trigger kit, and in over 3000 rounds, NEVER a hiccup. $300 new in the box with 2 16 round mags.
Wrap the grip on your C9 with a Hogue HandAll rubber Grip Sleeve. It will transform the grip feel from slippery plastic to grippy rubber. For me, it transformed the gun. I’ve carried mine concealed and open with complete confidence in it’s accuracy and reliability. Use the large. Not bad for a hundred dollar gun.
I also carry the Taurus G2. It works…….
10mm Eaa Witness steel. About $350 to $400. My ultimate gun is their Elite Limited Pro, same caliber. DA/SA, Adj sights, 15 rounds, 4.5 inch barrel. Awesome and reliable.
although many disparage them, I am partial to used revolvers. Few people shoot them enough to wear them out, especially the 2″ snubbies. Most I have seen exhibit more finish wear than mechanical wear. Even today, I have seen high quality used revolvers at gun shows for $300 or less, especially 4″ service revolvers. 5 or 6 rounds of 38 Special +p 158 grain LHP, aka the “Dade Load” is not to be sneezed at; if that is too stout, 148 wadcutters work well at short ranges. Snubbies do take some work to master, but with a bit of practice, and a lot of dry firing, you can keep them all in the A zone at 15 yards.
Slightly more pricey are the used Glocks at around $350 to $400. If you really want low price, the Taurus PT-22 is a good option, too, although you will want to practice head shots.
When I choose which gun to carry I choose it with the belief that my very life may depend on it. It is a very serious decision for sure.
Therefore dependability is the first consideration IMHO.
A pistol is for a short distance, most engagements will be at 7 yards or less, there isn’t a huge buffer of time in that short distance; a pistol & training that allows you to put rounds on target every time you pull the trigger is critical.
if I had to decide between spending a few more dollars on the pistol I carry or making sure I had proper training I would choose the training first and then additionally spend 10 times more time dry firing than live firing at least.
I carry a G43 and have never had it not go bang when the trigger was pulled, and can do a 12 yard center mass shot in 1.5 seconds or less from a dead draw with another kill shot between the upper lip and eyebrows a little thereafter if needed. If more is needed I hope I will be able to fight my way to my Tavor.
Exellent article sir. Long time Hi Piont man myself.